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	<title>Comments on: The &#8216;Grin Report&#8217; and its pretended support of Esperanto over Indo-European as European Union&#8217;s official language</title>
	<atom:link href="http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/</link>
	<description>Proto-Indo-European Language, Indo-European Languages &#38; European Union Language Policy</description>
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		<title>By: Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A simple FAQ about the &#8220;advantages&#8221; of Esperanto and other conlangs: &#8220;easy&#8221;, &#8220;neutral&#8221; and &#8220;number of speakers&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A simple FAQ about the &#8220;advantages&#8221; of Esperanto and other conlangs: &#8220;easy&#8221;, &#8220;neutral&#8221; and &#8220;number of speakers&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-237</guid>
		<description>[...] Yes, indeed. Many Esperantists, as any supporter of pseudosciences, conclude that people might be for or against their theory, and that therefore both positions are equally valid and should be taken with a grain of salt. For this question, I think it&#8217;s interesting, for those who think in terms of &#8220;equal validity&#8221; of their minority views when confronted to what is generally accepted, to take a quick look at Wikipedia&#8217;s Neutral Poin of View - equal validity statement, because they&#8217;ve had a lot of problems with that issue. To sum up, it says that if you talk about biology, you cannot consequently demand that evolution and creationism be placed as equally valid theories, only because some people (are willing to) assume they are; if you talk about the holocaust, or medicine, you don&#8217;t place revisionism or alternative medicines as equally valid theories or sciences: there are academic and scientific criteria that help classify knowledge into scientific and pseudoscientific. Most (if not all) Esperantist claims are at best pseudoscientific, and when they claim real advantages of their conlang, those are just as well (often better) applied to other conlangs or even to any language. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Yes, indeed. Many Esperantists, as any supporter of pseudosciences, conclude that people might be for or against their theory, and that therefore both positions are equally valid and should be taken with a grain of salt. For this question, I think it&#8217;s interesting, for those who think in terms of &#8220;equal validity&#8221; of their minority views when confronted to what is generally accepted, to take a quick look at Wikipedia&#8217;s Neutral Poin of View &#8211; equal validity statement, because they&#8217;ve had a lot of problems with that issue. To sum up, it says that if you talk about biology, you cannot consequently demand that evolution and creationism be placed as equally valid theories, only because some people (are willing to) assume they are; if you talk about the holocaust, or medicine, you don&#8217;t place revisionism or alternative medicines as equally valid theories or sciences: there are academic and scientific criteria that help classify knowledge into scientific and pseudoscientific. Most (if not all) Esperantist claims are at best pseudoscientific, and when they claim real advantages of their conlang, those are just as well (often better) applied to other conlangs or even to any language. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dnghu.org</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-93</link>
		<dc:creator>dnghu.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 22:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-93</guid>
		<description>&quot;Since there was no place for a reply there, I shall submit a reply here.&quot;

I&#039;ve posted your comment to that post:
http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/05/11/esperanto-other-invented-languages-vs-indo-european-and-iv-persistence-of-error/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Since there was no place for a reply there, I shall submit a reply here.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve posted your comment to that post:<br />
<a href="http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/05/11/esperanto-other-invented-languages-vs-indo-european-and-iv-persistence-of-error/" rel="nofollow">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/05/11/esperanto-other-invented-languages-vs-indo-european-and-iv-persistence-of-error/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Henry V. Janoski</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry V. Janoski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 17:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-91</guid>
		<description>I have read your posting &quot;Esperanto &amp; other invented languages vs. Indo-European for Europe (and IV): Universal Law of Persistence of Error.&quot; Since there was no place for a reply there, I shall submit a reply here.

You quibble about the difference between Esperanto as a &quot;constructed&quot; language and Indo-European as a &quot;reconstructed&quot; language.  But you go on to say that you have only a tentative word now for &quot;sun&quot; and may have to replace it &quot;because of a different Vedic Sanskrit or Tocharian attested word.&quot;  Why would anyone want to learn a language where the words may be constantly changing?

You say that your language, Indo-European, is the one spoken 4,500 years ago.  How do you know that your version of this language is what was actually spoken then, if you also say (above) that you are not sure what the word for &quot;sun&quot; was?  And why pick 4,500 years ago?  Wasn&#039;t Indo-European spoken before then, as some believe, or even later, as others believe?  How do you pick an arbitrary date?

You belittle the figure of 30,000 book titles in Esperanto. This is the approximate number of titles of an Esperanto library in London.  It consists of both translations (such as that of the Polish epic &quot;Pan Tadeusz&quot;) and original works.  Your reference to the number of book titles of Proto Indo-European on Google refers to scholarly books ABOUT the language not IN the language.  Moreover, you can go to a Vikipedia in Esperanto (a version of Wikipedia) and find thousands of articles written IN Esperanto.  Esperanto is the 15th most popular language on this site, out of some 6,000(?)languages in the world.

You admit that Esperanto is much easier to learn than Indo-European and claim that this is not important.  I disagree.  I learned Esperanto at age 12 and had a good command of that language within a few months.  But it took me 4 years or more  to attain some degree of proficiency in French and later Polish, and I am still struggling with Latin and Russian.

I commend you and others for the work being done in Proto Indo-European, as I have an interest in this field. But don&#039;t deceive yourself that you are able to &quot;reconstruct&quot; Indo-European as a spoken or written language.  The best we can hope for is to come up with probable formulas for the words, pronunciation and grammar of this language.  A tale &quot;written&quot; in this language by one of the scholars has since been &quot;improved upon&quot; amsny times, as new knowledge has been acquired.  It is just as impossible to reconstruct classical Latin from French, Italian, Spanish, etc.  We know Latin only from written books and documents (and are still not certain of its pronunciation).  But there are NO written books or documents IN Indo-European! 

I sincerely hope that the &quot;Universal Law of Persistence of Error&quot; does not mean you will continue to think you can &quot;revive&quot; Indo-European as a spoken language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read your posting &#8220;Esperanto &amp; other invented languages vs. Indo-European for Europe (and IV): Universal Law of Persistence of Error.&#8221; Since there was no place for a reply there, I shall submit a reply here.</p>
<p>You quibble about the difference between Esperanto as a &#8220;constructed&#8221; language and Indo-European as a &#8220;reconstructed&#8221; language.  But you go on to say that you have only a tentative word now for &#8220;sun&#8221; and may have to replace it &#8220;because of a different Vedic Sanskrit or Tocharian attested word.&#8221;  Why would anyone want to learn a language where the words may be constantly changing?</p>
<p>You say that your language, Indo-European, is the one spoken 4,500 years ago.  How do you know that your version of this language is what was actually spoken then, if you also say (above) that you are not sure what the word for &#8220;sun&#8221; was?  And why pick 4,500 years ago?  Wasn&#8217;t Indo-European spoken before then, as some believe, or even later, as others believe?  How do you pick an arbitrary date?</p>
<p>You belittle the figure of 30,000 book titles in Esperanto. This is the approximate number of titles of an Esperanto library in London.  It consists of both translations (such as that of the Polish epic &#8220;Pan Tadeusz&#8221;) and original works.  Your reference to the number of book titles of Proto Indo-European on Google refers to scholarly books ABOUT the language not IN the language.  Moreover, you can go to a Vikipedia in Esperanto (a version of Wikipedia) and find thousands of articles written IN Esperanto.  Esperanto is the 15th most popular language on this site, out of some 6,000(?)languages in the world.</p>
<p>You admit that Esperanto is much easier to learn than Indo-European and claim that this is not important.  I disagree.  I learned Esperanto at age 12 and had a good command of that language within a few months.  But it took me 4 years or more  to attain some degree of proficiency in French and later Polish, and I am still struggling with Latin and Russian.</p>
<p>I commend you and others for the work being done in Proto Indo-European, as I have an interest in this field. But don&#8217;t deceive yourself that you are able to &#8220;reconstruct&#8221; Indo-European as a spoken or written language.  The best we can hope for is to come up with probable formulas for the words, pronunciation and grammar of this language.  A tale &#8220;written&#8221; in this language by one of the scholars has since been &#8220;improved upon&#8221; amsny times, as new knowledge has been acquired.  It is just as impossible to reconstruct classical Latin from French, Italian, Spanish, etc.  We know Latin only from written books and documents (and are still not certain of its pronunciation).  But there are NO written books or documents IN Indo-European! </p>
<p>I sincerely hope that the &#8220;Universal Law of Persistence of Error&#8221; does not mean you will continue to think you can &#8220;revive&#8221; Indo-European as a spoken language.</p>
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		<title>By: Esperanto or English &#187; Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua : The Law of Persistence of Errors</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>Esperanto or English &#187; Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua : The Law of Persistence of Errors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 17:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-90</guid>
		<description>[...] Ido, Interlingua and other conlangs, answering a comment from a Esperantist in a post about the Grin Report&#8217;s support for Esperanto as Europe&#8217;s language: Le meilleur est l’ennemi du bien, ‘The best is the enemy of the good’; Ever since Ido tried [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ido, Interlingua and other conlangs, answering a comment from a Esperantist in a post about the Grin Report&#8217;s support for Esperanto as Europe&#8217;s language: Le meilleur est l’ennemi du bien, ‘The best is the enemy of the good’; Ever since Ido tried [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Indo-European languages &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Esperanto &#38; other invented languages vs. Indo-European (and IV) - Persistence of Error</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-88</link>
		<dc:creator>Indo-European languages &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Esperanto &#38; other invented languages vs. Indo-European (and IV) - Persistence of Error</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 09:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-88</guid>
		<description>[...] Comments Henry V. Janoski on The &#8216;Grin Report&#8217; and its pretended support of Esperanto over Indo-European as European ...Anonymous on Tamil vs. Sanskrit, or Indian &#8216;official classical languages&#8217;, and the first [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Comments Henry V. Janoski on The &#8216;Grin Report&#8217; and its pretended support of Esperanto over Indo-European as European &#8230;Anonymous on Tamil vs. Sanskrit, or Indian &#8216;official classical languages&#8217;, and the first [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Henry V. Janoski</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry V. Janoski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 20:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-87</guid>
		<description>Voltaire wrote: &quot;Le meilleur est l&#039;ennemi du bien&quot; (The best is the enemy of the good).  Ever since Ido tried to &quot;improve&quot; on Esperanto, many other constructed languages heve come along, but none has achieved anything near to what Esperanto has accompliched.  For example, there are more than 30,000 book titles in Esperanto!  And Esperanto has been around for more than 120 years!  Most of the other attempts at a constructed language have fallen by the wayside.  A similar fate awaits Indo-European, which, in its attempt to be more &quot;naturalistic,&quot; has actually become more difficult to learn, with its four conjugations of the verb, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Voltaire wrote: &#8220;Le meilleur est l&#8217;ennemi du bien&#8221; (The best is the enemy of the good).  Ever since Ido tried to &#8220;improve&#8221; on Esperanto, many other constructed languages heve come along, but none has achieved anything near to what Esperanto has accompliched.  For example, there are more than 30,000 book titles in Esperanto!  And Esperanto has been around for more than 120 years!  Most of the other attempts at a constructed language have fallen by the wayside.  A similar fate awaits Indo-European, which, in its attempt to be more &#8220;naturalistic,&#8221; has actually become more difficult to learn, with its four conjugations of the verb, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Esperanto or English &#187; The François Grin Report supports Esperanto as European Union&#8217;s best Option</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/comment-page-1/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Esperanto or English &#187; The François Grin Report supports Esperanto as European Union&#8217;s best Option</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2007/02/15/the-grin-report-and-its-pretended-support-of-esperanto-over-indo-european-as-european-unions-official-language/#comment-13</guid>
		<description>[...] Read in Indo-European language blog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read in Indo-European language blog. [...]</p>
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