Comments on: Air Berlin against the use of Catalan when flying to and from Catalan-speaking regions – Where is the European Union language policy based on “multilingualism” when one really needs it? http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/air-berlin-against-the-use-of-catalan-when-flying-to-catalan-speaking-regions-where-is-the-multilingualism-of-the-european-union-when-one-needs-it/ Proto-Indo-European Language, Indo-European Languages & European Union Language Policy Thu, 10 May 2012 07:05:22 +0000 hourly 1 By: Chris Coleman http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/air-berlin-against-the-use-of-catalan-when-flying-to-catalan-speaking-regions-where-is-the-multilingualism-of-the-european-union-when-one-needs-it/comment-page-1/#comment-208 Chris Coleman Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:19:56 +0000 http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=62#comment-208 Dear Indo European languages of Europe I m inquiring if you can begin to pass a law that makes Andalusian the offical language of Andalusia,Spain and standardize the Andalusian language ,of Andalusia,Spain! As you may know the Spainish government didn't pass a law in parliament that makes it's okay for Andalusians to speak Andalusian,in schools,business ete! Also as you may know the Spainish parliament made Catalan,Basque,Galician,and Aragonese official to speak in their region besides spanish! I would like to encourage you to please forward this idea to the Director Indo European languages of Europe! I would like to take this time to thank you for having a organization that's concern in preserving European languages for the furture! I look forward to hearing from you soon! Thank You very much have a good day! Sincerely, Christopher Coleman Dear Indo European languages of Europe

I m inquiring if you can begin to pass a law that makes Andalusian the offical language of Andalusia,Spain and standardize the Andalusian language ,of Andalusia,Spain!

As you may know the Spainish government didn’t pass a law in parliament that makes it’s okay for Andalusians to speak Andalusian,in schools,business ete!

Also as you may know the Spainish parliament made Catalan,Basque,Galician,and Aragonese official to speak in their region besides spanish!

I would like to encourage you to please forward this idea to the Director Indo European languages of Europe!

I would like to take this time to thank you for having a organization that’s concern in preserving European languages for the furture!

I look forward to hearing from you soon! Thank You very much have a good day!

Sincerely,
Christopher Coleman

]]> By: Indo-European http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/air-berlin-against-the-use-of-catalan-when-flying-to-catalan-speaking-regions-where-is-the-multilingualism-of-the-european-union-when-one-needs-it/comment-page-1/#comment-132 Indo-European Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:53:34 +0000 http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=62#comment-132 @Endavant: <em>[Again, this is about <strong>the Balearic Islands</strong>, not about Catalonia. But it's OK, you both antis and pros want to come here and comment without reading anything, without thinking, let's go then]</em> 1) We are both apparently Spanish citizens who can speak Spanish and Catalan, writing in an English blog - then, why use Italian? 2) "Noi catalani soltanto vogliamo" - false, you cannot speak in the name of others, as "we, Catalans". Not even if you were the president of the Generalitat would that be true nor correct about all Catalonia inhabitants. And still less if you are (as it seems) an individual from Catalonia talking in the name of all Catalan speakers, as you apparently identify "Catalan"="from a (historical?) Catalan-speaking region", which is actually false, too; there are more Spanish speakers than Spaniards, more German speakers than Germans, ... 3) "vogliamo che la nostra lingua sia paragonata alle lingue svedese,ceca,finlandese… lingue <strong>meno diffuse che il catalano</strong>" - Swedish and Czech are by far languages more spoken than Catalan, in any possible world - including the nationalist-independentist Matrix you are apparently living in -; Finnish, on the other hand, is spoken <strong>as mother tongue</strong> by ca. 5 million people, few if compared with the 'great' languages of Europe, and slightly more than Slovenian, Lithuanian or the rest "minor" official languages of the EU: BUT, could you tell us how many people <u>do have Catalan as mother tongue</u>? I guess not; you only repeat "Catalan is spoken by 11 million (or 9, or 12, or any number you like)" without further details whatsoever... In fact, you <em>pro hooligans</em> would like to see the more people possible in your "Catalan countries" unable to speak Spanish, just to be able to repeat such eternal slogans, but without having to invent number of real mother tongue speakers... 4)"ma che vengono usate nel web di Air Berlin. Ma per chè il catalano no? Perchè i Paesi Catalani non hanno uno stato propio?" Is that the most important thing for the <em>pro-Catalan-hooliganism</em>? that Catalan be used by Air Berlin when travelling to the Balearics, because Finnish is used when travelling to Finland or Swedish when travelling to Sweden? Are those cases <strong>the same</strong>? HAVE YOU READ MY POST OR MY COMMENT AT ALL before posting your <strong>pro-Catalan victimist spam</strong> here? 5) "D’altra parte, lo stato spagnolo e quello francese considerano che il catalano da fastidio e allora non diffendono i nostri diritti di catalonoparlanti" First, it's you who obviously consider a "fastidio" not to have a state called "Països Catalans", and not the 'Spanish state' or the 'French state' "who consider" anything, because they are not able to "consider" or "think" anything by themselves - again, if you cannot talk for "we, Catalans" (not even for yourself, as you copy&paste opinions of others), how can you so easily talk about "the French and Spanish state"? Do you hear voices, or speak with God? If yes, you can be healed by psychiatry. If not, you are just another demagogue, there's nothing to do. And second, it's you who wrongly consider that we the rest of Spaniards or French people (i.e. the whole 'Spanish and French states') <strong>should</strong> defend 'your rights as Catalan speakers', as you put it; what rights are those? The ones you want? The ones ERC wants? what about Galician, Asturian, Leonese, Cantabrian, Basque, Navarran, Aragonese, Valencian, Extremaduran, Castillian, Andalusian, Murcian speakers? What about Spanish speakers 'rights' in Catalonia, in the EU, how do you see them defended within your ideal Catalan world? What about the rest of European minority languages not defended before the EU, don't they deserve to be defended like Catalan? HAVE YOU REALLY COMMENTED HERE WITHOUT READING ANYTHING BEFORE? I guess you <em>pro hooligans</em> are becoming too active in spamming blogs to read anything first. 6) "Se invece Air Berlin avesse ingiuriato e offesso la lingua spagnola e gli spagnoli lo stato spagnolo avrei protestato" Again, you wrongly consider "injury and offense" the comment of Air Berlin's director about some Balearic inhabitants not understanding Spanish anymore due to the language policy, or about the possible future need to pay for translators of Catalan, Basque, Galician, Aragonese, Asturian, Occitan, Breton, Piedmontese, Ligurian, Sardinian, Sicilian, Scots, Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, etc. etc. in EACH European private company; in fact, you support the opinion and reaction of (your?) ERC party - which is just playing again and again the perennial <strong>Catalan victimist/imperialist role</strong> -, which has at the same time offended all Germans by immediately identifying Air Berlin with Nazis, just because its director expressed an idea they disliked...Very mature, adult reaction of pro-Catalan-hooliganism. Again. So, all in all, your conclusion is that your "Catalan countries (sic)" <em>should</em> have a State because the Catalan language <em>should</em> be "more important than" Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Czech or Slovenian, etc. and etc. BECAUSE YOU WANT IT, or, if not, your "rights" are being "injured". Thanks, you are the perfect representative of how <strong>LANGUAGE PREDATION</strong> is working in this whole story and in the European Union. @Endavant:
[Again, this is about the Balearic Islands, not about Catalonia. But it's OK, you both antis and pros want to come here and comment without reading anything, without thinking, let's go then]
1) We are both apparently Spanish citizens who can speak Spanish and Catalan, writing in an English blog – then, why use Italian?
2) “Noi catalani soltanto vogliamo” – false, you cannot speak in the name of others, as “we, Catalans”. Not even if you were the president of the Generalitat would that be true nor correct about all Catalonia inhabitants. And still less if you are (as it seems) an individual from Catalonia talking in the name of all Catalan speakers, as you apparently identify “Catalan”=”from a (historical?) Catalan-speaking region”, which is actually false, too; there are more Spanish speakers than Spaniards, more German speakers than Germans, …
3) “vogliamo che la nostra lingua sia paragonata alle lingue svedese,ceca,finlandese… lingue meno diffuse che il catalano” – Swedish and Czech are by far languages more spoken than Catalan, in any possible world – including the nationalist-independentist Matrix you are apparently living in -; Finnish, on the other hand, is spoken as mother tongue by ca. 5 million people, few if compared with the ‘great’ languages of Europe, and slightly more than Slovenian, Lithuanian or the rest “minor” official languages of the EU: BUT, could you tell us how many people do have Catalan as mother tongue? I guess not; you only repeat “Catalan is spoken by 11 million (or 9, or 12, or any number you like)” without further details whatsoever… In fact, you pro hooligans would like to see the more people possible in your “Catalan countries” unable to speak Spanish, just to be able to repeat such eternal slogans, but without having to invent number of real mother tongue speakers…
4)”ma che vengono usate nel web di Air Berlin. Ma per chè il catalano no? Perchè i Paesi Catalani non hanno uno stato propio?” Is that the most important thing for the pro-Catalan-hooliganism? that Catalan be used by Air Berlin when travelling to the Balearics, because Finnish is used when travelling to Finland or Swedish when travelling to Sweden? Are those cases the same? HAVE YOU READ MY POST OR MY COMMENT AT ALL before posting your pro-Catalan victimist spam here?
5) “D’altra parte, lo stato spagnolo e quello francese considerano che il catalano da fastidio e allora non diffendono i nostri diritti di catalonoparlanti” First, it’s you who obviously consider a “fastidio” not to have a state called “Països Catalans”, and not the ‘Spanish state’ or the ‘French state’ “who consider” anything, because they are not able to “consider” or “think” anything by themselves – again, if you cannot talk for “we, Catalans” (not even for yourself, as you copy&paste opinions of others), how can you so easily talk about “the French and Spanish state”? Do you hear voices, or speak with God? If yes, you can be healed by psychiatry. If not, you are just another demagogue, there’s nothing to do.
And second, it’s you who wrongly consider that we the rest of Spaniards or French people (i.e. the whole ‘Spanish and French states’) should defend ‘your rights as Catalan speakers’, as you put it; what rights are those? The ones you want? The ones ERC wants? what about Galician, Asturian, Leonese, Cantabrian, Basque, Navarran, Aragonese, Valencian, Extremaduran, Castillian, Andalusian, Murcian speakers? What about Spanish speakers ‘rights’ in Catalonia, in the EU, how do you see them defended within your ideal Catalan world? What about the rest of European minority languages not defended before the EU, don’t they deserve to be defended like Catalan? HAVE YOU REALLY COMMENTED HERE WITHOUT READING ANYTHING BEFORE?
I guess you pro hooligans are becoming too active in spamming blogs to read anything first.
6) “Se invece Air Berlin avesse ingiuriato e offesso la lingua spagnola e gli spagnoli lo stato spagnolo avrei protestato” Again, you wrongly consider “injury and offense” the comment of Air Berlin’s director about some Balearic inhabitants not understanding Spanish anymore due to the language policy, or about the possible future need to pay for translators of Catalan, Basque, Galician, Aragonese, Asturian, Occitan, Breton, Piedmontese, Ligurian, Sardinian, Sicilian, Scots, Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, etc. etc. in EACH European private company; in fact, you support the opinion and reaction of (your?) ERC party – which is just playing again and again the perennial Catalan victimist/imperialist role -, which has at the same time offended all Germans by immediately identifying Air Berlin with Nazis, just because its director expressed an idea they disliked…Very mature, adult reaction of pro-Catalan-hooliganism. Again.

So, all in all, your conclusion is that your “Catalan countries (sic)” should have a State because the Catalan language should be “more important than” Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Czech or Slovenian, etc. and etc. BECAUSE YOU WANT IT, or, if not, your “rights” are being “injured”.

Thanks, you are the perfect representative of how LANGUAGE PREDATION is working in this whole story and in the European Union.

]]> By: Endavant http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/air-berlin-against-the-use-of-catalan-when-flying-to-catalan-speaking-regions-where-is-the-multilingualism-of-the-european-union-when-one-needs-it/comment-page-1/#comment-131 Endavant Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:24:46 +0000 http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=62#comment-131 Noi catalani soltanto vogliamo che la nostra lingua sia paragonata alle lingue svedese,ceca,finlandese... lingue meno diffuse che il catalano, ma che vengono usate nel web di Air Berlin. Ma per chè il catalano no? Perchè i Paesi Catalani non hanno uno stato propio? (Soltanto l'Andorra è un paese indipendente e ha il catalano come lingua ufficiale, ma non fa parte de l'unione europea. D'altra parte, lo stato spagnolo e quello francese (dove si trova la Catalonga dell nord), considerano che il catalano da fastidio e allora non diffendono i nostri diritti di catalonoparlanti. Se invece Air Berlin avesse ingiuriato e offesso la lingua spagnola e gli spagnoli lo stato spagnolo avrei protestato. Noi catalani soltanto vogliamo che la nostra lingua sia paragonata alle lingue svedese,ceca,finlandese… lingue meno diffuse che il catalano, ma che vengono usate nel web di Air Berlin. Ma per chè il catalano no? Perchè i Paesi Catalani non hanno uno stato propio? (Soltanto l’Andorra è un paese indipendente e ha il catalano come lingua ufficiale, ma non fa parte de l’unione europea.
D’altra parte, lo stato spagnolo e quello francese (dove si trova la Catalonga dell nord), considerano che il catalano da fastidio e allora non diffendono i nostri diritti di catalonoparlanti. Se invece Air Berlin avesse ingiuriato e offesso la lingua spagnola e gli spagnoli lo stato spagnolo avrei protestato.

]]> By: Indo-European http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/air-berlin-against-the-use-of-catalan-when-flying-to-catalan-speaking-regions-where-is-the-multilingualism-of-the-european-union-when-one-needs-it/comment-page-1/#comment-128 Indo-European Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:45:16 +0000 http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=62#comment-128 @Verga: 1) The news is about a Catalan-speaking region, Majorca, in the <strong>Balearic Islands</strong>. Catalonia is a different Spanish region, where the situation - of the Catalan language and private companies' synergies when using Catalan - is completely different. I cannot imagine an airline complaining because of the use of Catalan in flights to and from, say, Barcelona, because it would be absurd. 2) Nobody is talking about "Human Rights", or "freedom to speak in your own language" - which are (both) well-defended in Spain and its Autonomous Communities alike - but about the linguistic policy of Spain and the EU, that permits, if not directly promotes, <strong>unending language predation and competition</strong>; not just the one shown by independentists looking to use only Catalan in Catalonia, but the one many Spaniards (like you?) show for Spanish to be used over (or instead of?) Catalan in Catalan-speaking regions, as it seems to me you are playing the same victimist game they have been playing for "30 years", as you say... And it's certainly not about this or that political option or "people" in general being 'bad' or 'good', since they are <strong>manicheist</strong> classifications (i.e. based on completely subjective impressions) with no place in a practical discussion of <em>pros</em> and <em>contras</em> of the different language policies available to the European market and the EU institutions. 3) "This right does not exist in Catalonia". The news refer to the implications of the conflict between Air Berlin and the Balearics linguistic policy in our supposedly unified European market, in which airlines could in the near future (as Air Berlin's director fears) need to have translators of Catalan, Galician, Basque, Occitan, Breton, Alsatian, Scots, Kashubian, Scottish Gaelic, Turkish, Welsh, Piedmontese, Ligurian, Venetian, Bavarian, Griko, Frisian, Sardinian, Low German, Saami, Sicilian, and so on and on. <strong>How can "small" airlines like Air Berlin, essential for proper and fair competition within the EU market, survive to such a request</strong>? Now it's <u>still</u> a <em>polite request</em> of the Balearic government, as they put it, but it could easily turn into an obligation as well - as it happens somehow currently in Catalonia's commerce, as you probably wanted to say with your comment - to use the regional language always when Spanish is used: shouldn't the own public resources be used for that language promotion, instead of compelling private companies to spend their resources in unending translations? Are these unending requests of language translations and promotions in local, regional, national and transnational communications 'in fact a question of <strong>actual communication needs, or are they mere cultural promotion</strong>? Should airlines flying to Galicia speak <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_language" rel="nofollow">Galician</a>, to Asturias speak <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturian_language" rel="nofollow">Asturian</a>, to Aragon speak <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_language" rel="nofollow">Aragonese</a> to Extremadura speak <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremaduran_language" rel="nofollow">Extremaduran</a>? Furthermore, given the regional and political differences reflected in language policy and regulation - that makes e.g. Galician and Portuguese different Galician-Portuguese <em>de iure</em> 'languages' -, should airlines have translators of Valencian (a Catalan dialect like the Catalan from Catalonia) or Leonese (an Asturian or Astur-Leonese dialect like Asturian) too, because of the regional linguistic policy followed within those Autonomous Communities? Where is the limit to regional or "minority" (i.e. non-official in the EU) language obligations of European public institutions, and especially of <u>private companies acting within the EU</u>? Will language policy depend on regional or local governments, on who cries or shouts more, on who makes such political confrontations usual within its country or the EU until obtaining what they want? Is it all that language supporters need to do, to look for confrontation, to predate other languages and climb more levels in the European Union language policy? Are we really searching for <strong>perfect competition in the European Union</strong>, when in fact regions and cities can today oblige - either formally or by promoting social pressure, like boicotts - private companies to do such <em>unnecessary</em> local and regional efforts, that we are actually supporting the maintenance or even new development of <strong>oligopolistic markets</strong>, where only huge companies, able to comply with all regional obligations and still having benefits, will survive? I could agree with your comment, but it seems to me that you are just criticizing the excessive use of Catalan in front of Spanish in Catalonia, and thus trying to revert the nationalistic trend in favour of Spanish, instead of directly addressin the real (i.e. practical) questions behind this conflict. To counterargument your "human rights" question: why shouldn't airlines communicate in Catalan in Catalonia, where it is the 'usual' language, while they apparently have to communicate (according to your comment) in Spanish? or why should European flights use Slovenian in Slovenia, or Maltese in Malta anyway, and not Catalan in Catalonia? Why should Maltese speakers be more defended than Catalan speakers within the European Union? Shouldn't private companies have just some <strong>minimal standard obligations</strong> - be it English, or English+French, or English+French+German, or in the best case English+<a href="http://dnghu.org/Indo-European/" title="Modern Indo-European" rel="nofollow">European</a> ;-) - and the rest of language promotion measures be left for the regional or national public institutions, so that no more artificial hindrances are put to our common European market and (almost) European country? @Verga:
1) The news is about a Catalan-speaking region, Majorca, in the Balearic Islands. Catalonia is a different Spanish region, where the situation – of the Catalan language and private companies’ synergies when using Catalan – is completely different. I cannot imagine an airline complaining because of the use of Catalan in flights to and from, say, Barcelona, because it would be absurd.

2) Nobody is talking about “Human Rights”, or “freedom to speak in your own language” – which are (both) well-defended in Spain and its Autonomous Communities alike – but about the linguistic policy of Spain and the EU, that permits, if not directly promotes, unending language predation and competition; not just the one shown by independentists looking to use only Catalan in Catalonia, but the one many Spaniards (like you?) show for Spanish to be used over (or instead of?) Catalan in Catalan-speaking regions, as it seems to me you are playing the same victimist game they have been playing for “30 years”, as you say… And it’s certainly not about this or that political option or “people” in general being ‘bad’ or ‘good’, since they are manicheist classifications (i.e. based on completely subjective impressions) with no place in a practical discussion of pros and contras of the different language policies available to the European market and the EU institutions.

3) “This right does not exist in Catalonia”. The news refer to the implications of the conflict between Air Berlin and the Balearics linguistic policy in our supposedly unified European market, in which airlines could in the near future (as Air Berlin’s director fears) need to have translators of Catalan, Galician, Basque, Occitan, Breton, Alsatian, Scots, Kashubian, Scottish Gaelic, Turkish, Welsh, Piedmontese, Ligurian, Venetian, Bavarian, Griko, Frisian, Sardinian, Low German, Saami, Sicilian, and so on and on. How can “small” airlines like Air Berlin, essential for proper and fair competition within the EU market, survive to such a request? Now it’s still a polite request of the Balearic government, as they put it, but it could easily turn into an obligation as well – as it happens somehow currently in Catalonia’s commerce, as you probably wanted to say with your comment – to use the regional language always when Spanish is used: shouldn’t the own public resources be used for that language promotion, instead of compelling private companies to spend their resources in unending translations? Are these unending requests of language translations and promotions in local, regional, national and transnational communications ‘in fact a question of actual communication needs, or are they mere cultural promotion? Should airlines flying to Galicia speak Galician, to Asturias speak Asturian, to Aragon speak Aragonese to Extremadura speak Extremaduran? Furthermore, given the regional and political differences reflected in language policy and regulation – that makes e.g. Galician and Portuguese different Galician-Portuguese de iure ‘languages’ -, should airlines have translators of Valencian (a Catalan dialect like the Catalan from Catalonia) or Leonese (an Asturian or Astur-Leonese dialect like Asturian) too, because of the regional linguistic policy followed within those Autonomous Communities? Where is the limit to regional or “minority” (i.e. non-official in the EU) language obligations of European public institutions, and especially of private companies acting within the EU? Will language policy depend on regional or local governments, on who cries or shouts more, on who makes such political confrontations usual within its country or the EU until obtaining what they want? Is it all that language supporters need to do, to look for confrontation, to predate other languages and climb more levels in the European Union language policy? Are we really searching for perfect competition in the European Union, when in fact regions and cities can today oblige – either formally or by promoting social pressure, like boicotts – private companies to do such unnecessary local and regional efforts, that we are actually supporting the maintenance or even new development of oligopolistic markets, where only huge companies, able to comply with all regional obligations and still having benefits, will survive?

I could agree with your comment, but it seems to me that you are just criticizing the excessive use of Catalan in front of Spanish in Catalonia, and thus trying to revert the nationalistic trend in favour of Spanish, instead of directly addressin the real (i.e. practical) questions behind this conflict. To counterargument your “human rights” question: why shouldn’t airlines communicate in Catalan in Catalonia, where it is the ‘usual’ language, while they apparently have to communicate (according to your comment) in Spanish? or why should European flights use Slovenian in Slovenia, or Maltese in Malta anyway, and not Catalan in Catalonia? Why should Maltese speakers be more defended than Catalan speakers within the European Union? Shouldn’t private companies have just some minimal standard obligations – be it English, or English+French, or English+French+German, or in the best case English+European ;-) – and the rest of language promotion measures be left for the regional or national public institutions, so that no more artificial hindrances are put to our common European market and (almost) European country?

]]> By: Verga http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/air-berlin-against-the-use-of-catalan-when-flying-to-catalan-speaking-regions-where-is-the-multilingualism-of-the-european-union-when-one-needs-it/comment-page-1/#comment-127 Verga Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:16:14 +0000 http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=62#comment-127 Now the world is knowing about the real situation of human rights in Catalonia. We are more than 30 years fighting against this situation, but people have always thought that we, spaniards, were the "bad guys" abroad. We only want freedom to speak in your own language. This right does not exist in Catalonia. Now the world is knowing about the real situation of human rights in Catalonia. We are more than 30 years fighting against this situation, but people have always thought that we, spaniards, were the “bad guys” abroad. We only want freedom to speak in your own language. This right does not exist in Catalonia.

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