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	<title>Comments on: When a language should be considered artificial &#8211; A quick classification of spoken, dead, hypothetical and invented languages</title>
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	<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/</link>
	<description>Proto-Indo-European Language, Indo-European Languages &#38; European Union Language Policy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 01:59:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: bicsboist</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-3228</link>
		<dc:creator>bicsboist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 14:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-3228</guid>
		<description>Где-то я уже встречал схожую заметку да ладно</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Где-то я уже встречал схожую заметку да ладно</p>
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		<title>By: Казахстан</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-3201</link>
		<dc:creator>Казахстан</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-3201</guid>
		<description>Не поспоришь, качественная работа</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Не поспоришь, качественная работа</p>
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		<title>By: Тимур</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-3198</link>
		<dc:creator>Тимур</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-3198</guid>
		<description>На каком-то сайте я уже встречал похожую статью!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>На каком-то сайте я уже встречал похожую статью!</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Henry</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-3066</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-3066</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very puzzled at why you consider languages without a written form, or which only recently acquired a written form, less natural than languages with a longer history of writing.  I would consider all languages with a speaker community, which have evolved naturally from older languages which had speaker communities as far back as we know about, to be equally natural, whether they have written forms or not.

Further, I&#039;m dubious about your classifying less well-attested natural languages as &quot;less natural&quot; than better-attested natural languages.  The languages themselves are equally natural; it&#039;s only our knowledge of them that differs.  It would be clearer, perhaps, if you say that *our reconstruction of* a dead language is something of a conlang, generally more naturalistic than a conlang made up from scratch but less natural than a living natlang, or than the dead natlang in question was when it was spoken.

It seems to me that borrowing vocabulary from other natlangs is not a less natural process than compounding, derivation, or stretching the meanings of old words.  But if you want to classify languages as less natural because they use many loanwords, why is English in category #1?

You discuss language academies etc. a little in the latter part of your post, but they don&#039;t seem to figure in your classification scheme proper.  I would suggest that colloquial spoken French is as natural as any other natlang spoken by a large and vigorous speaker community, but that standardized written French as regulated by the Academy is somewhat less natural than the typical natlang, though more natural than a reconstructed proto-language or a conlang that has no speakers.

As an earlier commenter pointed out, your classification of conlangs as more or less natural, more or less artificial, only takes into account their origin as imitating some natural language more or less closely (and that, only in a particular way).  It leaves out of account whether the language has acquired a speaker community whose actual usage is now normative, rather than (or more so than) the original language inventor&#039;s blueprints.  Esperanto, Interlingua, Ido, probably Toki Pona, maybe even Lojban are all &quot;more natural&quot; by this criterion than Latino Sine Fleksione or Sambahsa, which you rank above them in naturalness.

Furthermore, your system takes no account, as far as I can tell, of conlangs derived from natural languages not by &quot;correcting&quot; them, as you describe LSF and some other auxlangs, but by putting them through a fictional but naturalistically plausible alternate history of sound changes, grammar changes, and so forth -- e.g. Brithenig, Wenedyk, and so forth.  I would consider these to be more naturalistic than Interlingua or Esperanto, by the origin criteron, but less natural (by the &quot;live speaker community&quot; criterion) than those actually spoken auxlangs.  This suggests that we might want a multi-dimensional scheme for classifying languages, taking into account both size and activity of the speaker community, adherence to known linguistic universals, origin of vocabulary and grammar, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very puzzled at why you consider languages without a written form, or which only recently acquired a written form, less natural than languages with a longer history of writing.  I would consider all languages with a speaker community, which have evolved naturally from older languages which had speaker communities as far back as we know about, to be equally natural, whether they have written forms or not.</p>
<p>Further, I&#8217;m dubious about your classifying less well-attested natural languages as &#8220;less natural&#8221; than better-attested natural languages.  The languages themselves are equally natural; it&#8217;s only our knowledge of them that differs.  It would be clearer, perhaps, if you say that *our reconstruction of* a dead language is something of a conlang, generally more naturalistic than a conlang made up from scratch but less natural than a living natlang, or than the dead natlang in question was when it was spoken.</p>
<p>It seems to me that borrowing vocabulary from other natlangs is not a less natural process than compounding, derivation, or stretching the meanings of old words.  But if you want to classify languages as less natural because they use many loanwords, why is English in category #1?</p>
<p>You discuss language academies etc. a little in the latter part of your post, but they don&#8217;t seem to figure in your classification scheme proper.  I would suggest that colloquial spoken French is as natural as any other natlang spoken by a large and vigorous speaker community, but that standardized written French as regulated by the Academy is somewhat less natural than the typical natlang, though more natural than a reconstructed proto-language or a conlang that has no speakers.</p>
<p>As an earlier commenter pointed out, your classification of conlangs as more or less natural, more or less artificial, only takes into account their origin as imitating some natural language more or less closely (and that, only in a particular way).  It leaves out of account whether the language has acquired a speaker community whose actual usage is now normative, rather than (or more so than) the original language inventor&#8217;s blueprints.  Esperanto, Interlingua, Ido, probably Toki Pona, maybe even Lojban are all &#8220;more natural&#8221; by this criterion than Latino Sine Fleksione or Sambahsa, which you rank above them in naturalness.</p>
<p>Furthermore, your system takes no account, as far as I can tell, of conlangs derived from natural languages not by &#8220;correcting&#8221; them, as you describe LSF and some other auxlangs, but by putting them through a fictional but naturalistically plausible alternate history of sound changes, grammar changes, and so forth &#8212; e.g. Brithenig, Wenedyk, and so forth.  I would consider these to be more naturalistic than Interlingua or Esperanto, by the origin criteron, but less natural (by the &#8220;live speaker community&#8221; criterion) than those actually spoken auxlangs.  This suggests that we might want a multi-dimensional scheme for classifying languages, taking into account both size and activity of the speaker community, adherence to known linguistic universals, origin of vocabulary and grammar, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-3063</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 00:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-3063</guid>
		<description>&quot;after Esperanto’s failure. &quot;

What are you talking about? Esperanto is still the biggest articifial language, in terms of literature output, speakers, history etc. It has failed to take over the world, but not as a language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;after Esperanto’s failure. &#8221;</p>
<p>What are you talking about? Esperanto is still the biggest articifial language, in terms of literature output, speakers, history etc. It has failed to take over the world, but not as a language.</p>
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		<title>By: Indo-European</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-1161</link>
		<dc:creator>Indo-European</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-1161</guid>
		<description>@Joël Landais:

I&#039;m sorry to hear you are fed up with my opinion about Uropi not being related to Proto-Indo-European. But I think you contradict yourself by asserting Uropi is &lt;strong&gt;related to PIE&lt;/strong&gt; and at the same time:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Of course, &lt;strong&gt;Uropi has not kept the original shape of these roots&lt;/strong&gt; which seem rather prehistoric to me. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

And giving examples of how you changed your selected &lt;strong&gt;vocabulary&lt;/strong&gt;, as e.g. *sawel for &quot;sol&quot;, because you found it &quot;less prehistoric&quot; that way. Not to talk about the &lt;strong&gt;morphology and syntax&lt;/strong&gt;, which are rather &quot;modern European made easy&quot;, as you put it.

For me - and for some others with which I&#039;ve discussed it - yours is another artificial language, loosely based on PIE, of course, just like Esperanto was loosely based on some European languages. Which is fine. 

Personally, I think it was, as an auxlang project, another step in the right direction after Esperanto&#039;s failure. Not less, but not more than a personal conlang. Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joël Landais:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry to hear you are fed up with my opinion about Uropi not being related to Proto-Indo-European. But I think you contradict yourself by asserting Uropi is <strong>related to PIE</strong> and at the same time:</p>
<blockquote><p>Of course, <strong>Uropi has not kept the original shape of these roots</strong> which seem rather prehistoric to me. </p></blockquote>
<p>And giving examples of how you changed your selected <strong>vocabulary</strong>, as e.g. *sawel for &#8220;sol&#8221;, because you found it &#8220;less prehistoric&#8221; that way. Not to talk about the <strong>morphology and syntax</strong>, which are rather &#8220;modern European made easy&#8221;, as you put it.</p>
<p>For me &#8211; and for some others with which I&#8217;ve discussed it &#8211; yours is another artificial language, loosely based on PIE, of course, just like Esperanto was loosely based on some European languages. Which is fine. </p>
<p>Personally, I think it was, as an auxlang project, another step in the right direction after Esperanto&#8217;s failure. Not less, but not more than a personal conlang. Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Joël Landais</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-869</link>
		<dc:creator>Joël Landais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-869</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m &lt;strong&gt;fed up&lt;/strong&gt; with reading on your pages (here Indo-European) that Uropi is almost unrelated to Proto-Indo-European. I&#039;ve made a list of 360 Uropi root-words which come directly from Indo-European roots (and the list is not yet completed). You can find examples of these roots on the Uropi blog: http.//uropi.canablog.com/
Of course, Uropi has not kept the original shape of these roots which seem rather prehistoric to me. But this has been the destiny of these roots when they have survived in modern European languages.I-e &lt;em&gt;sâwel&lt;/em&gt; has given Spanish &lt;em&gt;sol&lt;/em&gt; and guess what is the Uropi word ? &lt;strong&gt;sol&lt;/strong&gt;. I-e &lt;em&gt;swépmi / swôpeyô&lt;/em&gt; has given Latin &lt;em&gt;sopor&lt;/em&gt; (sleep) and Scandinavian &lt;em&gt;sove/sova&lt;/em&gt; (to sleep): the Uropi word is &lt;em&gt;sopo&lt;/em&gt;.
You only have to open a page of The Uropi-French dictionary to see that the immense majority of Uropi words come from P.I.E roots. For instance, out of the 12 of the first S page (words in &lt;strong&gt;sa-&lt;/strong&gt;, only 4 are not from an Indo-European origin: &lt;em&gt;sabel&lt;/em&gt;, from Hungarian &lt;em&gt;szab&lt;/em&gt; (sabre), &lt;em&gt;sak&lt;/em&gt; (sack),from Greek (an I-E language) &lt;em&gt;sakkos&lt;/em&gt;, and &lt;em&gt;sabat, sabadia&lt;/em&gt; (Sabbath, saturday) from Hebrew &lt;em&gt;shabbat&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m <strong>fed up</strong> with reading on your pages (here Indo-European) that Uropi is almost unrelated to Proto-Indo-European. I&#8217;ve made a list of 360 Uropi root-words which come directly from Indo-European roots (and the list is not yet completed). You can find examples of these roots on the Uropi blog: http.//uropi.canablog.com/<br />
Of course, Uropi has not kept the original shape of these roots which seem rather prehistoric to me. But this has been the destiny of these roots when they have survived in modern European languages.I-e <em>sâwel</em> has given Spanish <em>sol</em> and guess what is the Uropi word ? <strong>sol</strong>. I-e <em>swépmi / swôpeyô</em> has given Latin <em>sopor</em> (sleep) and Scandinavian <em>sove/sova</em> (to sleep): the Uropi word is <em>sopo</em>.<br />
You only have to open a page of The Uropi-French dictionary to see that the immense majority of Uropi words come from P.I.E roots. For instance, out of the 12 of the first S page (words in <strong>sa-</strong>, only 4 are not from an Indo-European origin: <em>sabel</em>, from Hungarian <em>szab</em> (sabre), <em>sak</em> (sack),from Greek (an I-E language) <em>sakkos</em>, and <em>sabat, sabadia</em> (Sabbath, saturday) from Hebrew <em>shabbat</em></p>
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		<title>By: Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A simple FAQ about the &#8220;advantages&#8221; of Esperanto and other conlangs: &#8220;easy&#8221;, &#8220;neutral&#8221; and &#8220;number of speakers&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A simple FAQ about the &#8220;advantages&#8221; of Esperanto and other conlangs: &#8220;easy&#8221;, &#8220;neutral&#8221; and &#8220;number of speakers&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-234</guid>
		<description>[...] in daily speech? A new study from the Royal Spanish Academy on language acquisitionBill Chapman on When a language should be considered artificial - A quick classification of spoken, dead, hypothetic...Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Bronze Age village discovered in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in daily speech? A new study from the Royal Spanish Academy on language acquisitionBill Chapman on When a language should be considered artificial &#8211; A quick classification of spoken, dead, hypothetic&#8230;Indo-European languages of Europe &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Bronze Age village discovered in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Chapman</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Chapman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-221</guid>
		<description>I think this is a good summary of a complicated field.

I would attach &quot;spoken language&quot; to Esperanto. It is spoken in a way that Latino sine flexione or Novial are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a good summary of a complicated field.</p>
<p>I would attach &#8220;spoken language&#8221; to Esperanto. It is spoken in a way that Latino sine flexione or Novial are not.</p>
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		<title>By: Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Five lines of ancient script on a shard of pottery could be the longest proto-Canaanite text ever found, archaeologists say</title>
		<link>http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2008/06/artificial-and-natural-languages/comment-page-1/#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator>Indo-European languages of Europe &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Five lines of ancient script on a shard of pottery could be the longest proto-Canaanite text ever found, archaeologists say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/?p=59#comment-218</guid>
		<description>[...] found it interesting because of the implications that these findings might have on classifications of dead languages into more natural or artificial regarding the knowledge we have of them, especially about proto-languages like Proto-Canaanite (or [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] found it interesting because of the implications that these findings might have on classifications of dead languages into more natural or artificial regarding the knowledge we have of them, especially about proto-languages like Proto-Canaanite (or [...]</p>
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